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 Engine turning slow when starting
CannibalAnimal
post Nov 22 2009, 02:49 AM
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Can anyone help me figure out why my engine is turning over slowly when I try to start it. It takes a while to crank because the engine is not turning fast enough to start it. I even tried using jump cable with my car and it still turns over slowly. At one time it would turn slow at the beginning and then turn faster as I hold the start button. NOw it continues to turn slow. The battery is fully charged and sufficient amount of gas is in tank. Would a bad starter or regulator be the cause? Also, the weather has gotten colder(40-50 degrees) so could that be the cause as well. Thanks is advance for any assistance.


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hartracing3478
post Nov 22 2009, 02:58 AM
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I would check the starter if the battery has a good charge on it. I wouldnt recommend using jumper cables. you have the possibility of frying your ecu. I would also try investing in a trickle charger and allow it to trickle slow for a few hours. The fuel regulator shouldnt cause the engine to crank over slow. That just controls the amount of fuel after it has left the fuel pump.
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MX Quad Dad
post Nov 22 2009, 03:08 AM
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I'm sure somebody will chime in on some possibilties. But it could be many thing from a simple bad connection to a siezed bearing. I would start with cleaning the connections, includeing the starter to engine block. I did run a ground wire from the neg. battery post to the starter mounting bolt on mine. are you hooking both ends of the jumper cables to the battery, if so try hooking the neg cable to the starter. also checking battery voltage while cranking might be some useful info.


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CannibalAnimal
post Nov 22 2009, 03:11 AM
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Thanks for the information HartRacing. I do trickle charge my battery before each ride just to make sure I have full charge on battery before I try to start dale. I was also leaning towards a bad starter. Is there anyway to check for a bad starter?


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CannibalAnimal
post Nov 22 2009, 03:17 AM
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QUOTE (MX Quad Dad @ Nov 21 2009, 10:08 PM) *
I'm sure somebody will chime in on some possibilties. But it could be many thing from a simple bad connection to a siezed bearing. I would start with cleaning the connections, includeing the starter to engine block. I did run a ground wire from the neg. battery post to the starter mounting bolt on mine. are you hooking both ends of the jumper cables to the battery, if so try hooking the neg cable to the starter. also checking battery voltage while cranking might be some useful info.



The dale will start eventually, and when it does, it runs great. I will try connecting cable to starter negative. When you say siezed bearing, which bearing are you referring to, starter bearing? Thanks for the reply.


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hartracing3478
post Nov 22 2009, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE (CannibalAnimal @ Nov 21 2009, 10:11 PM) *
Thanks for the information HartRacing. I do trickle charge my battery before each ride just to make sure I have full charge on battery before I try to start dale. I was also leaning towards a bad starter. Is there anyway to check for a bad starter?



Take a ohm meter to the battery before and while you engage your starter. And also take a reading off of your starter with the ohm meter when your engaging it. You will be looking for a significant amperage drop. You can also take the the postive ohm meter pin and place it on the positive connection on your starter as well just to make sure your drawing close to 12 volts at the starter from the battery.
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hartracing3478
post Nov 22 2009, 03:28 AM
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A car battery is capable of producing high amperage, the actual amperage drawn depends on the resistance of the circuit you apply to it.

I (current) = E (voltage) / R (resistance of circut)

It's reasonable to assume a car battery could produce in excess of 100 amps, for example : your skin has a reletively high resistance, you can safely touch both posts of a car battery and not draw enough current through your body to even feel. In that matter its hard to say exactly how much resistance your ecu can handle. Ive heard of so many horror stories of people using jumper cables.
But... i would rather be safe than sorry to keep from failure and a short circut, i really would be cautious of using jumper cables
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MX Quad Dad
post Nov 22 2009, 04:23 AM
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QUOTE (CannibalAnimal @ Nov 21 2009, 10:17 PM) *
The dale will start eventually, and when it does, it runs great. I will try connecting cable to starter negative. When you say siezed bearing, which bearing are you referring to, starter bearing? Thanks for the reply.


I was just useing that as an extreem. If it runs good when it starts you probubly don't have that extreem of a problem. I have used jumper cables many times. mostly never withe the car engine running and that was more to protect the battery. I'm not saying it won't hurt the ECU but, I have never had a problem with it. when I check starter draw it is with a voltmeter, connect both leads to the correct battery post. You should have a little over 12 volts before trying to crank it, if not battery is low or bad. when you crank it over it shouldn't drop below 9 volts. make sure your meter is connected to the battery post and not the wires.

you can do the cranking voltage test with the starter off the engine. but without a load a bad starter can still check out good.


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MX Quad Dad
post Nov 22 2009, 12:41 PM
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forgot to mention, if the voltage drops below 9 volts I would say it is more than likely the battery. I'm not sure but a bad starter would take a few (10-20??????) seconds to draw a good battery down below 9 volts.

at first sign of a starting problem I would recomend cleaning all battery conections (both battery post, all wires at the fuel pressure regulator mounting bolts, both solinoid bolts and starter post and don't forget the wire ends. while you are at it the ecu ground at the left headlight mount also). starter grounds through its body so I would remove it and clean the mounting areas. aluminum is a good electrical conductor but it does corrode and even more so at electrical connections. and every bolt together joint on the frame and motor is a possible electrical connection.

the bolt by the fuel pressure regulator were the ground wire hooks up has a crimp type nut that actually is just squeezed onto the frame. our Moto had a problem at that point. when we had problems I would tighten the bolt a little and it would fire right up. when I tore it down after the first race season I was polishing (more like just a good cleaning) the frame and noticed it looked a little black where the nut thingy was crimped on, so I ran a seperate ground wire between the two regulator mounting bolts, to the ecu ground and a bigger (same size as the battery cables) wire to the starter mount. Oh yeah, and star washers at every joint.

My speed had the mystery stall when it was new so I did the same thing to it and problem was gone. I know the problem was probubly cured from unbolting and cleaning the connections but I feel better with the copper wire for a ground.


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Wistech
post Nov 22 2009, 04:30 PM
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When you say cranks slow is it the whole time or is it kind of stalling on the compresion stroke? That would indicate a decomp issue. Easily tested with a compresion tester or just taking the spark plug out and cranking it . Ive also seen some starters need to have to mounting bolts loosened up and move the starter just a smidge if it feels like the gears are grinding loudly ( not enough backlash) .
Of course load test the battery . It doesnt matter if its new out of the box or old. Batteries now days are hit or miss regardless of brand or money spent. The engine needs at least 80 to 100 amps to crank so an average battery that can supply 120 amps should be more than enough to start a good engine.
If all is well with the battery do a voltage drop test to find a high resistance in the system. Using a voltmeter set one lead to the negative terminal andf the other to the starter housing and crank ,observe reading. it should be near zero or less than 3 tenths of a volt. If there is voltage then check the ground system. Do the same with the positive terminal and the starter terminal. Its a super easy test and will eliminate a whole lot of wasted time and frustration changing parts and guessing.

you can also load test the battery by just cranking the engine and observing battery voltage while cranking . A good battery will be well above 10 volts while cranking .


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CannibalAnimal
post Nov 22 2009, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Wistech @ Nov 22 2009, 11:30 AM) *
When you say cranks slow is it the whole time or is it kind of stalling on the compresion stroke? That would indicate a decomp issue. Easily tested with a compresion tester or just taking the spark plug out and cranking it . Ive also seen some starters need to have to mounting bolts loosened up and move the starter just a smidge if it feels like the gears are grinding loudly ( not enough backlash) .
Of course load test the battery . It doesnt matter if its new out of the box or old. Batteries now days are hit or miss regardless of brand or money spent. The engine needs at least 80 to 100 amps to crank so an average battery that can supply 120 amps should be more than enough to start a good engine.
If all is well with the battery do a voltage drop test to find a high resistance in the system. Using a voltmeter set one lead to the negative terminal andf the other to the starter housing and crank ,observe reading. it should be near zero or less than 3 tenths of a volt. If there is voltage then check the ground system. Do the same with the positive terminal and the starter terminal. Its a super easy test and will eliminate a whole lot of wasted time and frustration changing parts and guessing.

you can also load test the battery by just cranking the engine and observing battery voltage while cranking . A good battery will be well above 10 volts while cranking .


I did the remove spark plug test to see if it would turn faster and it still turned slow. I was thinking it eas a compression problem so I tried that first. Since it still turned slow, now I am leaning towards the battery or starter. I will do the voltmeter test today to check voltage while tryng to crank.

Thanks.


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cannondale27
post Nov 23 2009, 12:23 AM
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If you put jumper cables on it and it still didnt turn over fast I would remove flywheel cover and turn the motor over by hand with sparkplug removed.Odds are greater for internal issues than starter failing and jumping it eliminated bad battery issue.I would hate to see you ruin a good motor if it starts with something amiss internaly.Better safe than sorry.


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